“abstinence until marriage”? You must live in a strange little world.

The people that live that way are happy productive people in society. I dont know what goal you aspire to.

I said it is what I advocate as a successful model of living, not what I lobby for legislativly. In my world people take personal resposibility for their choices. Choices that are their God given natural rights. With those choices come full responsibility for the consequences of the freedom of their actions.

If people freely abdicate their responsibility for their actions, they should also abdicate their freedom.
How about mandatory implantable Birthcontrol for women who apply for assistance after it is plain they dont have the ability to care for the 1st child?

After all, it is their choice to make.

I congratulate you, Mr. “Antony” for your choice of life-style, and applaud your commitment to your personal moral standards.

I hope that you will attend every high school homecoming in the area and explain your position to all students. Next spring you can repeat your lectures prior to area proms. When you have finished, you can visit the several colleges and universities in the area and explain the benefits of your position. I wish you luck in those endeavors.

Meanwhile, I note that celibacy has been the goal of a number of secular and religious communities for thousands of years. Indeed, there are reports that some of the Essene sects prior to and at the time of Christ practiced celibacy (though there is some disagreement among scholars as to the extent of the practice). However, in practice, celibacy has been effective among only a very few groups—and that includes the modern Roman church, as recent scandals reveal.

So, while celibacy has worked in small groups and for short periods of time, it has over history been a remarkably ineffective means of avoiding pregnancy. Moreover, even among celibate groups instances of conception resulting from rape are not rare.

You would consign pregnancies from rape, or among those whom you consider “weak of character” to a sort of moral purgatory, where they are the ones who have erred, and therefore must suffer whatever consequences may follow, including a woman’s giving birth to a child conceived in rape, or continuing with a pregnancy that will kill her.

I suggest that yours is a moral position that is untenable and arrogant—so arrogant that it could, I suspect, only be held by a male who has not thought through his position with clarity and consideration of anyone other than himself—or who has accepted the dogma of some outside institution with consideration only for himself. However laudable your goal, your moral stance as it applies to others is reprehensible. If you cannot view a woman who is pregnant with an unwanted child with compassion and an attempt at understanding, then I pity you.

I do not presume to suggest that those who show concern for women with unwanted pregnancies, unwed mothers, or women who suffer in abusive relationships are morally superior to you. I do suggest, however, that they hold both a more realistic view of human nature, and show more concern than do you for people other than themselves.

I do not mean to preach, Mr. “Antony.” I do, however, mean to suggest that I find your position on these matters to be extraordinarily short-sighted, and, to me, morally repugnant. If you yourself want to be celibate until marriage, then that’s an excellent choice—for you. If you have only experienced marriage that is loving and mutually supportive, that’s wonderful. Unfortunately, that’s not how much of the world works.

Before you start throwing around foolish accusations again, let me state up-front that I am a deeply religious and practicing Christian. My spiritual and practical concern extends to people who experience problems of many sorts. Yes, Mr. “Antony,” that even includes you.

Jon I have no power institute any practice. My short concise point is………Do what ever you please. Of all the gifts God gave man, the greatest is free will……..This nation is founded on individual freedom.

Do not for even a second, confuse that free will and freedom with the power to enslave me, by your endorsement and encouragment of bad choices.

While you hold all people to the lowest common denominator, animalistic creatures with no control over their emotions and hormones, I know that all people are very capable of controlling themselves and delaying instant gratification and understanding the consequences of their free choices. I refuse to agree with your low opinion of my fellow man. Rearing children has taught me the people will meet the expections you establish, no matter how low those expectations are. History shows this to be true in the case of unwanted pregnacy.
BTW, abstinence as 100% effective.

Mr Antony,
You are absolutely correct. People should be held acountable for what they choose to do. And that includes what they choose to say.
I agree completely with Mr Nunn and with what he posted. Nunn finds “your position on these matters to be extraordinarily short-sighted, and morally repugnant” and so do I, and so do a lot of other people. You can’t duck out of it by saying “I have no power to institute any practice”.
The fact that you believe that we, as a societty, can turn our backs on people who need help because they must have made bad choices and they’re getting what they deserve is appalling.
We don’t leave people to die because they made choices that you don’t like. And if the rest of us find your morality repulsive, then the rest of us are free to say so.

You find it moraly repugnant? So you get to force your morals on me? I shold be used to the double standard by now.

And turn our backs on who? I am allowing people their God given and constitutionaly protected right to exercise their freedom. With the freedom to make those decisions they have the right to reap the personal rewards that result.

The collective society you long for exists. Places like China. They are experincing great success at the present time.Freedom is sparse and fleeting. But equality of mediocre living circumstances are assured. That anyone is so strident to subject this great nation to that kind of life, used to amaze me, now I just shrug my shoulders at the ignorance of those that cant see past the supposed compassion

What ? ( China ) “. . . but equality of mediocre living circumstances are assured.” I visited China within the last year and that statement is nonsense. There are huge numbers of late model cars filling the streets and expressways and toll roads while there are huge numbers of people just earning enough to exist. Hardly equality of living circumstances !
(We see if this comment gets deleted — I see mine implying that professionals in the fields of psychology and social work would find some of Mr. Antony’s comments ridiculous was deleted.)

Mr Antony, no one is forcing anything on you, but on this there is no middle ground.
We either help those who stumble and fall or we don’t. As I recall, what I was taught about Jesus back iin Sunday school, was that he was a man who helped those who had fallen, including those no one else would touch

As usual Roberta your understanding of Christianity is terribly deficient.

Christ spoke to the soul of the individual. NEVER did Christ preach that a man should coerce or demand that someone else should do good works. While I should take care of my fellow man, I have no right to demand others to do anything.

Mr Antony,
I responded to your post but the Gazette flipped it up the line so I’ll try again.
Mr Antony,
That ia a bridge too far

“Christ spoke to the soul of the individual. NEVER did Christ preach that a man should coerce or demand that someone else should do good works.”

No, probably He didn’t. But He DID impose a severe burden on each human to care for others.

How do YOU interpret this, Mr. “Antony?” (Hint: it’s in St. Luke’s Gospel…) What is YOUR duty? Is it simply to be judgmental and censorious?

“On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. ‘Teacher,’ he asked, ‘what must I do to inherit eternal life?’

“’What is written in the Law?’ he replied. ‘How do you read it?’

“He answered, ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind;’ and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

“’You have answered correctly,’ Jesus replied. ‘Do this and you will live.’

“But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, ‘And who is my neighbor?’

“In reply Jesus said: ‘A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. The next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

“‘Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?’

The expert in the law replied, ‘The one who had mercy on him.’

“Jesus told him, ‘Go and do likewise.’”

“abstinence as 100% effective.” That may be true, but abstinence only programs to reduce unwanted pregnancies by young people are total failures.

Don’t confuse abstinence and abstinence only programs.

“How about mandatory implantable Birthcontrol for women who apply for assistance after it is plain they dont have the ability to care for the 1st child?”

Remember – it takes two. So to be fair, you must track down the other half of the baby making machine and implant them with birth control.

But likely this wouldn’t please the right wing because birth control is a sin.

Hmm…back to the drawing table.

Torrie, again. This is not something i would force, This is something a woman would choose to do as a consequence of her actions. I’m not forcing anything.

BTW I am a big fan of making all public aide contingent on the mother identifying the father, and providing his address.

Mr Antony,
Welfare assistence is already contingent on the mother identifying the father, and providing his address and has been for many decades

Mr. “Antony,” I appreciate your candor.

At the same time, that candor exposes a level of hatred and conceited superiorityI have but seldom encountered before.

So, then, Mr. “Antony,” all unwanted pregnancies, even those that are the result of rape, are nothing more than the product of “animalistic creatures with no control over their emotions and hormones”? Does that include the pregnant mother, the person who is attacked and then, by your standards, forced to carry an unwanted child to term, and—because she is, after all (and according to your standards) some subhuman creature who just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time—must spend the rest of her life dealing with the consequences of her rapist’s actions? Is that your position, Mr. “Antony”? If so, for shame!

I gather from your previous posts in other threads that you quite probably see poverty as the fault of the poor person. Apparently you feel no responsibility whatsoever to your fellow creatures, since any trouble they may have is somehow their own fault—in fact, they CHOOSE to have their problems, since they have free will.

If those statements indeed describe you, Mr. “Antony.” you are, in my view, beneath contempt.

The rest of your post is utter foolishness and ranting. I too have reared children, and reared them by myself following the death of their mother. They are successful and caring adults, and among my best friends. For what it’s worth, I am well into my seventh decade on this earth. I grew up dirt-poor. My children, thankfully, had enough as they grew up.

I do agree with one thing you say, however: “people will meet the expectations you establish, no matter how low those expectations are.” You, sir, appear to me to be among the lowest of the low. Apparently you expect those in need simply to “suck it up” and deal with it. So long as you choose not to fall from your self-appointed seat of self-righteousness, any disaster that befalls anyone else is of their own choosing, and none of your concern.

If you genuinely believe what you have posted here, you represent all of the most selfish, bigoted, and uncaring characteristics of a human being. That is, of course, your perfect right.

It is not I, sir, who holds “all people to the lowest common denominator,” particularly when apparently you hold yourself, proud, arrogant, and naive, above all people less fortunate than you.

What a sad and bitter life you must lead—and how much you miss by your apparent lack of compassion and charity.

“. . . I support abstinence until marriage.”
I support everyone having the ideal weight for their height / a healthy body-mass index, not using a cell phone while driving, finishing high school, getting plenty of exercise . . .